thorolf ([info]thorolf) wrote,
@ 2008-02-08 08:59:00
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Multiculturalism, Pluralism, and the limits thereof...
So - don't get me wrong. My arguments in favor of treating Muslims as individuals and not simply stereotyping them all as fundamentalist radicals shouldn't be taken as anything but my own bias and reaction against lumping entire populations into quick and easy pigeonholes. It doesn't work very well when we try to do it to Heathens and Asatruar - why should it work better when dealing with Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Christians, or the Chinese?

On the other hand, my own biases in favor of multiculturalism and pluralism have limits. [info]autobeast posted a link this morning that ties right into where I'd planned to go with this line of pontification:  Archbishop backs sharia law for British Muslims


This is not the only European example of bending a little too far, IMHO. A German judge recently ruled that a domestic abuse case he was hearing was entirely permissible conduct under Shari'a law (the news item was from March 2007, so direct links to news feeds have long since disappeared - Google "German judge rules Koran" and you'll find plenty of reaction from other bloggers).

The more conservative voices out there are trumpeting this as the zenith of multicultural dipstickery and a legal system run amok, and I have to admit that they've got  a point, much as it galls me to do so. This is the sort of thing that has European social conservatives up in arms, and leads to stuff like the Freyja Aswynn posting that got so much blog time among the Heathens last week. There's a very real sense of fear out there that the foreigners are 'taking over' - and while I don't share that fear myself, I see where it's coming from.

Thing is, one judge's opinion (even in Germany) isn't the final say - and neither is the opinion of the Archbishop of Canturbury. Whenever two (or more) cultures come into contact, there is a period of adjustment - and these are symptoms of that adjustment, not signs of the End Times. Legal bodies have already denounced the Archbishop's pronouncement, and the Central Council of Muslims in Germany is on record denouncing the German legal decision (see? Moderate Islam - right there in print and on the record). If you'll pardon the descent into academic language for a minute, it's the Hegelian dialectic in action. You have a Thesis (Western Law), an Antithesis (Shari'a Islamic Law), and they're butting up against each other on the way to a new Synthesis. This doesn't mean that everyone will be subject to Shari'a in the future, or that Western Law is going to ignore Muslim social mores and religious sensibilities in its traditional paternalistic style (which is the very real fear on the other side of the coin) - most likely, IMHO, there will be some recognition that within traditional communities, Shari'a will continue to be the local standard <i>right up to the point that civil authorities outside the community are called in to get involved in a dispute</i>., at which point the local standards will have to accommodate civil standards. That, in a nutshell, is how pluralism is supposed to work in theory (like, f'r instance, States' Rights in a Federal Republic, or National Law vs. International Law). It's a gross oversimplification, but that's the basic theory as I understand it.

And that's why I'm fairly confident that, in the long run, we'll figure out the Theses, Antitheses, and Syntheses in our own country as well. We've done it before (in some cases far more successfully than others - ask Vine Deloria), and I think we'll do it again. .





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[info]lonespark
2008-02-08 10:07 pm UTC (link)
I had heard that there is something in place in the UK to use Jewish law in some subset of certain cases (family law, I would think, and voluntary?) so I'm not sure why that couldn't provide an analogy.

Your gross oversimplification is a good summary of the way it often works, and should work, but of course the creation of Synthesis can be more or less painful.

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[info]asatruteacher
2008-02-08 11:02 pm UTC (link)
Keep believing that all the way up to when Notre Dame becomes a mosque and they're leading all the Heathens out to be beheaded. Islam is NOT compatible with ANY civilized western culture. It dominates and it destroys. Either the West will realize this, or it will die. That's the true dialectic here.

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-11 03:58 am UTC (link)
You might want to check with the Copts in Egypt...

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-11 04:29 am UTC (link)
On the other hand, they're People of the Book (Dhimmi), and we're not.

Honest, I recognize the danger that militant Islam poses. It's just that I classify it as the same basic threat that fundamentalist Christianity poses, and ultimately, I suspect the two will run headlong into each other.

Plus, militant Islam is not the only Islam, as I've said before. We'll just have to keep agreeing to disagree, I think.

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[info]asatruteacher
2008-02-11 12:38 pm UTC (link)
They haven't been doing so well lately as they are targeted by the Muslim Brotherhood.

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-11 08:53 pm UTC (link)
True, but the Muslim Brotherhood is technically illegal. Being Coptic isn't. The MB candidates for office still represent a minority in Egypt, and their current level of popularity is credited to the unpopularity of the ruling party rather than to religious factors... The Copts are actually in dialogue with the Brotherhood, trying to defuse recent tensions.

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[info]asatruteacher
2008-02-11 11:20 pm UTC (link)
But they aren't safe. And remember, as far as Christians and Jews are concerned, the Q'ran says that Muslims should enslave them. Their command regarding "the polytheists" is to kill them all. The Muslims take that command very serious.

Danny

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-15 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Spoken like a true ISTJ... :D I'm an INTP, which may explain some of the perspective differences we're experiencing.

I still think you're painting with too broad a brush and conflating all of Islam with the Islamist and Shari'a-ist factions (which, I'll admit, are more popular and stronger than I'm comfortable with).

And from your perspective, I'm probably ignoring obvious security risks and splitting hairs over unimportant semantic differences. And that's what makes our conversations interesting.

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[info]asatruteacher
2008-02-18 01:41 am UTC (link)
Look at what's happening in Kosovo- they're burning Christian churches- not that I give a shit about the Christians, but they ARE clear about us polytheists as well.. Look what's happening in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians could have had their country a long time ago, but they're too busy hating and attacking Israel to build anything. Anywhere there are a substantial number of Muslims they begin to cause problems. Riots and Death Threats in Denmark over some cartoons. Rioting and burnings for weeks in France. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are at war with Islam.

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-19 06:08 pm UTC (link)
We're certainly at war with Jihadist interpretations of Islam, and more correctly with practitioners of said interpretations...

But I'm still not buying into the broad brush argument against an entire religion, even when a majority seems to fall under the descriptions you use. There's still a reasonable minority out there, and lumping them in with the wackos does everyone involved a disservice.

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[info]asatruteacher
2008-02-19 11:43 pm UTC (link)
I would be willing to accept your accusations of broad brush if wasn't for the resounding silence coming from these so-called moderate Muslims. Instead we hear them crying for more special treatment and concilliations from them. They want to enact shariah law across Europe. They threaten to kill anyone who "insults Islam.
There's an old saying: Silence is consent.

Even if you're right, and only 10% of Muslims are radical jihadists, then you are still talking about 100 million out of a billion. Thats 1/3 the population of the US. If it's only 1%, that's 10 million. Ten million can kill a lot of people.

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-20 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Which leads us right back around the mulberry bush to the point of my previous posting - which is that the fact that moderate Muslims aren't getting any press doesn't mean they're not out there, as witnessed by Asatru's public face... the popular media isn't interested in running stories about the ones that aren't in prison, or who aren't linked to the White Power movement, and law enforcement is convinced that those of us who espouse a moderate line are the minority once you add in the prison population to our best guesses about numbers of practicing Heathens. The same media that paints all Muslims as Jihadists paints us as Aryan Nations sympathizers. Do we trust them to get Islam right, when they don't get Heathenry right?

Would you suggest that our own 'silence' equals consent? Within the Heathen community, anyone who dares to point out areas where Heathen social theory gets uncomfortably close to Separatist rhetoric gets shouted down as a Wiccatru Universalist Moonbat... When Fox news recently put a piece together on Asatru, several folks from the liberal/"universalist" wing contacted the writer who was working the story - but the piece that ran still felt like a hatchet job, linking us even more strongly in the public imagination with Richard Butler and the Aryan Nations wingnuts.

I don't know what the proportion of moderates to extremists is in Islam - in fact, I'd argue that your 10% figure is probably ridiculously low - and I don't dispute that the numbers of people espousing Shari'a (and worse) are scary big. I'm simply saying that lumping all Muslims into one basket is a logical fallacy - even if the only moderates out there are the two that I know personally. Ditto for Asatru - I know a lot of non-racist, non-WP Heathens - but if you check popular culture, you'd never know we were there...

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[info]asatruteacher
2008-02-21 10:31 pm UTC (link)
It's this simple: Heathens have not become a threat to the freedoms and security of the rest of the world. Even if 80% of us were strict tribal separatists we don't behead people, we don't try to enforce our rules on others. Islam does that, says that it is going to do that, and carries out it's plan with violence. Don't see a Hel a lot of that from Heathens.

Danny

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-28 04:27 pm UTC (link)
We're talking at 90 degrees from each other, Danny.

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[info]walkyrja
2008-02-09 02:49 pm UTC (link)
See...here's the thing. I'll admit to a bias here, but, in my opinion religious law/mores should *never* be confused with, or even a part of, secular law/mores.

Natrually the biggest problem with that position, as regards Muslims, is that their religious law *is* their seculaw law.

However :) As a heathen, I also believe in precedent, and precedent to me shows that people need to be held accountable to the rooftree that they are under - in short, if you're in a country with secular law as its rule, then you need to obey the rules of that country, or face that country's consequences. Back a few years a young American man was caned, because that was the required punishment for his crime *in that country*. Caused a hue and a cry here in America, but for me? The kid violated the rules, he paid the consequences.

Now, I do think that a wise judge would allow testimony regarding a person's faith/religious custom/religious law into his/her courtroom, because it goes to mental state and, possibly, motive. But if that happens, then both defense and prosecutor get to examine all aspects of the particular religion, as it is relevant to that case. For instance...remember that prisoner who killed another prisoner, because said victim was not "correctly worshipping the Gods?" Wellllll he (the murderer) claimed that he was not getting a fair trial, because the jury read about "eye for an eye," which is Biblical. Hokay, fine. I say let the defense argue that. But then, let the prosecution argue Outlawry, consult Gragas about the proper punishment for those who refused to pay weregild, and also point out our religious belief in facing the consequences of our actions.

I am, of course, understating the case. Still - I firmly believe that secular law takes precedence in certain countries for a reason, and that the law of the particular country is the one that needs to take all precedence. Yes, that means in some Islamic countries I could, myself, be beaten and even killed. Hence my firm conviction never to VISIT said countries, nor put myself under their rooftrees.

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[info]heethen_crone
2008-02-10 02:36 am UTC (link)
Very well put.

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-11 04:04 am UTC (link)
See, this is why I need an editor - and I also need to post from home, where I've got time to go back over my posts and add in the additional paragraphs that I compose in my head, but which I manage to forget to actually type in between breaks at work...

Because I'm very much in favor of "When In Rome, Do As The Romans Do" as an operating principle. Also a default legal principle.

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[info]heethen_crone
2008-02-10 02:49 am UTC (link)
I remember a while back on another heathen list when this came up. There were some cases in Canada where Moslems were requesting trial by their laws and not Canadian law. I believe the outcome was that they were going to allow the Moslems to state what their law was with regard to their cases but they were in Canada and would be tried under Canadian law.

There may be some synthesis of legal practices but could you imagine the horrible hodgepodge if people of different religions were allowed to be tried under religions law?

"I'm heathen. I demand holmgang. The prosecutor gets his/her choice of weapons to defend his side."

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-11 04:09 am UTC (link)
Yeah, it would get insanely complicated - unless we go with the default, which is that people work things out between themselves up to the point that a mediator is needed. Then, people tend to go to a recognized authority or wise person, which is where most of these culturally based legal systems come from.

If the persons involved aren't willing to live by the dictates of their particular subculture, then they get involved with civil authority - in just the same fashion as the Moroccan immigrant woman in Germany sought a civil divorce when Shari'a law did not operate to her satisfaction, IMHO, the proper response of the judge should have been to examine Shari'a law and then point out that she was not, in fact, an Imam and therefore not in a position to apply Shari'a law but rather German civil law - which was what the plaintiff was after in the first place.

U.S. Law is not immune from this sort of thing, of course - ask Dred Scott...

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[info]weofodthignen
2008-02-22 02:07 pm UTC (link)
As I understand it, Dred Scott flubbed his chance to invoke the law of a Free State as his state of residence and that was what the Supreme Court used as its excuse to in effect repeal the law Congress had passed, which did set up jurisdictions with different rules on personhood. As such, it's not a good test of the principle of differential laws for different groups of people; they denied his standing to sue on the grounds of his non-personhood.

I'm not sure the Missouri Compromise and the situation of slaves is a good analogy anyway. The Brown case seems more apposite--is "separate but equal" equal? No.

I don't think the case of observant Jews who want Halacha (the get, the eruv, and anything else possible) to operate by tacit agreement as a sub-set within US law is a good parallel either, because those causes are based on the local civic authorities turning a blind eye--violations of laws the larger society wishes to enforce, such as those against under-age marriage and other forms of child abuse and those against unsafe food production, are punished nonetheless, and the state does not cede its rights to the rabbis. We can see this in cases such as the Moroccan immigrant you cite above; there have also been cases of a woman unable to get a get proceeding to apply for a civil divorce.

Rather, such cases--and the exorcism cases in England involving children in the Caribbean immigrant community who have been maimed and even killed, and the rising tide of "female circumcision" cases, including young women brought up in the West attempting to enlist the courts to aid them in resisting mutilation--illustrate the oppression that results from having differential laws for sub-cultures. There will always be some who suffer from the application of such laws (just as there are ways in which all minority ways of life suffer from the impartial application of a single system of rules--for example, we heathens cannot legally immolate our dead privately, or in most states, inter them on our own land, and despite the successful lawsuit by the Santeria congregation (Church of the Lukumi Babalu Yaga?) against Coral Gables, FL, animal sacrifice is still effectively banned in most jurisdictions). It simply isn't fair to have different rules for different groups; it increases the incidence of such suffering and if the laws are pointlessly victimizing one group, they should be changed, not differentially replaced with another system.

The Archbishop of Canterbury is himself acting as an unwarranted relic of a double system when he sounds off on such things. The argument that religious values should not be enshrined in law is a tempting rejoinder, but it is a practical impossibility to remove ther influence. They are the basis of any religious person's ethics (and morality, if you make the distinction); they remain as the foundation of the vast majority of our laws, such as the prohibition on murder and the idea of an age of majority.

As such, he should know better and he should be accordingly punished for suggesting something that is in fact an abrogation of sovereignty and a deep insult to Moslems. It's not about accommodating their supposed wishes. It's about the idea they are somehow other. Nope. They are people living in the United Kingdom, and thus subject to the laws of the United Kingdom, worthy of the same protections and able to handle the same responsibilities under its laws as any other group. Including superannuated overpaid fools who represent a now useless church apparatus. Human rights are human rights, equality is equality, and this traitor's own Bible should afford lots of quotations to that effect--about Samaritans and Gentiles.

Frith,
M

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[info]thorolf
2008-02-28 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the refresher - I tend to use "Dred Scott Decision" as shorthand for "legal clusterfuck", and need to remind myself of the full details. As you say, Brown vs. Board of Education is a better analogy.

And legally, having separate laws and courts is just a bad idea. What I'm getting at is really more a situation that we've already got in the U.S. - cultural mores in effect for social groups, subject to and subordinate to civil authority (whether local, State, or Federal). If people object to the social mores (in cases, for example, where they're radically out of step with the dominant culture), they can either leave the community (if possible - we've seen cases recently where this is, shall we say, 'discouraged') or seek legal redress using the court system.

As I've argued in other forums, respect for other cultures has to be reciprocal in order to be even-handed. If I do not wish to be subject to German laws on firearms ownership, for example, I should avoid moving to Germany. If I'm in Germany and I wish to maintain my American 2nd amendment freedoms, I've got a long road ahead of me, legally and socially speaking, to change the laws...

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